tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496103327369055047.post6203669378047500215..comments2024-03-11T09:39:22.914+00:00Comments on Ex Umbris Et Imaginibus: Time To Reassess RelationshipsFather Directorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17910574198138234820noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496103327369055047.post-92233528448127263192011-09-07T19:49:29.682+01:002011-09-07T19:49:29.682+01:00I don't think a Concordat would be either poss...I don't think a Concordat would be either possible or beneficial where there is no recognition or understanding among the political classes or indeed much of the public of the nature of the Church as a human, philosophical and political organisation, as well as a divine and spiritual one. There is a widespread ignorance on the part of many in Ireland, including (or especially) the nominally Catholic, of the Church, who she is and what her mission in the world is. (The terrible priest- formation, cathechesis, liturgy, etc. having made many Catholics vuknerable to opposing ideologies.) Many in politics and the Media see or represent the Church as the hierarchy (bishops and priests) only and as some kind of opposing force to the secular principles upon which the State must be run. All commited and practising Catholics are seen as enemies of the State whose fidelity to the nation must be in question. There is not an understanding of the State existing by dint only of the wishes of the people for the support of their interests, their natural goods, including the exercise of their faith and reason, and the natural institutions of marriage, family, community and nation. The faith and morality of humanity comes prior to the State, which the latter must serve. However, in the increasingly totalitarian-type State envisaged by many in Ireland today, the true purpose, and natural limits of, the State is ignored, and its powers exceeded and abused in the quest by some to gain greater control of others. Until such time as the leaders of the Church once again propose the truth of her teachings and most Catholics are committed to upholding their faith in their private and public lives, including in State office, the Church will be increasingly dictated to, banished from public life, and deemed not worthy of engagement of any kind. All in all, the Church in Ireland needs to stand up and take its rightful place in society, which it can only do if orthodoxy is restored to its theology and practice. When society understands what good the Church brings it, the State will respect the Church too and understand it is not a rival. LyndaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496103327369055047.post-24202979825348174872011-09-07T17:44:22.012+01:002011-09-07T17:44:22.012+01:00I agree Father with your analysis. Since the state...I agree Father with your analysis. Since the state introduced divorce I have held the opinion that there should be separate civil and religious ceremonies as in other parts of Europe. Practising Catholics will have no problem with this as many recognise the civil side as a mere legal formality.Fr. Gabriel Burke C.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16781282465881743182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496103327369055047.post-33469404396871201492011-09-07T15:06:06.915+01:002011-09-07T15:06:06.915+01:00The bould Enda's not goin to shift. Maybe we s...The bould Enda's not goin to shift. Maybe we should get Johnny to start a national novena about that, depending on 'offerings' being stumped up of course!!!Caoimhin O hEidirsceoilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496103327369055047.post-40358201326514395082011-09-07T14:41:24.373+01:002011-09-07T14:41:24.373+01:00One UK MP has written to Davidd Cameron to say tha...One UK MP has written to Davidd Cameron to say that if the Church refuses to do gay weddings they should be stripped of their licence. That's fine - as you say, we can have Church and state ceremonies held separately!<br /><br />See here: http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/9228930.MP_calls_for_churches_to_be_stripped_of_licences_for_refusing_to_marry_gays/martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496103327369055047.post-29946823824546877032011-09-07T14:35:18.320+01:002011-09-07T14:35:18.320+01:00Interesting post. A concordat may well be necessar...Interesting post. A concordat may well be necessary if we see some revival of the penal laws -- a prospect which doesn't strike me as at all improbable. The problem with concordats is that, as you pointed out, they're not always respected by the temporal authorities and they always involve the Church renouncing certain rights that are properly hers. One thing that must never be conceded (but which will inevitably be demanded) is allowing the state any supervisory role over the appointment of bishops; that would be a disaster. <br /><br />I wonder if the sex scandals will look very different ten years from now. I was reading back some of Mgr P. Francis Cremin's interviews from the late 70s and its obvious that the rot in the Church in Ireland has existed since the 60s (and perhaps the revelations are a reflection of that). The scandals have seriously hurt the Church's social prestige though I personally think bad catechesis, bad pastoral leadership and bad liturgy have done far more damage to the Church in Ireland than all the abuse reports combined.<br /><br />I don't think though that the relationship between Church and State, for instance, in the very different Ireland of the 1940s and 50s was excessively close; I think politicians legislated Catholic values because that's what the electorate wanted at the time. That worked well and was popular at that time, though things have changed a lot in the meantime (not least the Church itself) and voters are no longer inspired by Catholic doctrine in their voting choices. Catholics in Ireland now need to be more introspective, more 'communal' and less open to the secular world than has been the case for the last 4 decades. I take comfort from the fact that the Church in Ireland was in a mess before the 1820s --- things can always change when we least expect it.shanehttp://lxoa.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-496103327369055047.post-88141814618822223222011-09-07T14:22:38.699+01:002011-09-07T14:22:38.699+01:00Fr John,
You make good points there about the Chur...Fr John,<br />You make good points there about the Church-state relationship.<br />I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about your proposal to take the state registration of marriages away from the Church ceremony, for the practical reason that if there is a gap between the state signing and the Church wedding after, couples could think it is OK to go ahead and consummate the marriage before they are sacramentally married. The current arrangement seems ideal from that point of view to me.Jeremiahnoreply@blogger.com